>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," AFTER A MONTHS-LONG BATTLE BETWEEN THE YES AND NO FORCES ON QUESTION 1, THE SO-CALLED "MILLIONAIRE'S TAX" OR "FAIR SHARE AMENDMENT" IS NOW ENSHRINED IN THE MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION, WITH THE REVENUE IT RAISES, INTENDED FOR TRANSPORTATION AND EDUCATION.

BUT WHEN THE TAX INCREASE TAKES EFFECT NEXT YEAR, WILL THE MONEY ACTUALLY MAKE IT TO THOSE PLACES?

THE HEADS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS BUDGET AND POLICY CENTER, AND THE MASSACHUSETTS TEACHER'S ASSOCIATION, TWO LEADERS OF THE CAMPAIGN, JOIN ME.

PLUS, TWITTER'S ONLY BEEN UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT FOR ABOUT A WEEK, BUT C.E.O.

ELON MUSK'S MANY MOVES HAVE ALREADY PROMPTED A FLOOD OF USERS TO LEAVE.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE PLATFORM AS A PLACE TO BOTH FIGHT OPPRESSION AND SPREAD MISINFORMATION?

SOMEONE WHO WON'T LEAVE, AND ANOTHER WHOSE BAGS ARE PACKED, SITTING BY THE DOOR, CONSIDERING TWEXIT, JOIN ME.

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: IN ADDITION TO THE ALL-DEMOCRATIC AND NEARLY ALL-FEMALE SLATE OF CANDIDATES ELECTED TO STATEWIDE OFFICE IN LAST WEEK, THREE OUT OF FOUR OF THE BALLOT QUESTIONS WERE ALSO VOTED INTO LAW.

THAT INCLUDES THE HIGHLY CONTESTED QUESTION 1, WHICH PASSED WITH JUST 52%, THE NARROWEST MARGIN AMONG ALL FOUR BALLOT QUESTIONS.

THE MEASURE, ALSO KNOWN AS THE "MILLIONAIRE'S TAX" OR THE "FAIR SHARE AMENDMENT," IMPOSES AN ADDITIONAL 4% SURTAX ON TOP OF THE ALREADY-EXISTING STATEWIDE 5% TAX, ON ANY HOUSEHOLD INCOME EXCEEDING $1 MILLION.

SUPPORTERS OF THE TAX TOUTED THE ADDITIONAL REVENUE- ESTIMATES FALL IN THE ONE TO TWO BILLION DOLLAR RANGE, WHICH WAS EARMARKED FOR EDUCATION AND TRANSPORTATION, THOUGH OPPONENTS SAID STATE LAWMAKERS WILL GET THE FINAL SAY ON THE SPENDING.

THEY ALSO WARNED THE MEASURE COULD COST JOBS AND DRIVE WEALTHIER CITIZENS OUT OF THE STATE, THOUGH MANY BELIEVE THAT KIND OF BACKLASH WILL BE MINIMAL.

SO WHAT CAN WE EXPECT AFTER THE NEW TAX TAKES EFFECT ON JANUARY 1ST?

TO DISCUSS, I AM JOINED BY LEADERS OF YES ON 1, THE PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS BUDGET AND POLICY CENTER, MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, AND PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS TEACHERS ASSOCIATION, WHICH CONTRIBUTED MANY MILLIONS TO THE EFFORT, MAX PAGE.

>> Braude: MAX, PAGE, MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON.

>> Braude: MAX, AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN FIVE PRIOR EFFORTS TO TAX WEALTHIER PEOPLE, AND I LED THE MOST RECENT ONE 28 YEARS AGO.

AND EVERY ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN CRUSHED, LITERALLY CRUSHED.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT THIS TIME?

WHY DID YOU WIN?

>> WELL, JIM, I THINK WE WON FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

ONE IS THAT WE PUT TOGETHER A TRULY INCREDIBLE CAMPAIGN, I THINK ONE OF THE VERY BEST GRASSROOTS COMPAIGNS THAT HAS EVER BEEN LAUNCHED IN THE STATE.

I THINK WE CRAFTED THIS VERY INTELLIGENTLY.

WE REALLY WANTED TO MAKE SURE WE WERE FOCUSING ON THE VERY, VERY WEALTHIEST INDIVIDUALS IN THE COMMONWEALTH, WHO HAVE GOTTEN WEALTHIER OVER THE PAST 38 YEARS, SINCE YOU WORKED ON THIS, AND HAVE GOTTEN WEALTHIER EVEN DURING THE PANDEMIC.

AND WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC KNEW THE MONEY WOULD BE GOING TO THINGS THEY CARED DEEPLY ABOUT, PUBLIC EDUCATION, PRE-"K" THROUGH HIGHER EDUCATION.

AND ROADS, BRIDGES, AND TRANSPORTATION.

SO BOTH PARTS OF THAT EQUATION I THINK REALLY APPEALED TO THE VOTERS.

AND I KNOW IT WAS CLOSE, BUT THAT'S 100,000 VOTES FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN A THIRD RAIL IN MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS.

>> Braude: MARIE FRANCES, A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WEREN'T CLOSE WAS THE SPENDING.

YOUR SIDE IN GREAT FUNDED BY MAX'S ORGANIZATION AND THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION, OUTISOUTSPENT THE OWE PENT, 28 TO ONE MILLION.

BUT THEY OPPOSED IT, BUT HE DIDN'T DO IT PUBLICLY.

IF THERE HAD BEEN A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD ON MONEY AND BAKER HAD MADE THIS A CRUSADE, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT A VICTORY TONIGHT?

>> WHAT THIS WIN SHOWS IS THE POWER OF INCLUSIVE DEMOCRACY, WHEN PEOPLE HAVE ACCURATE FACTS.

AND ONE OF THE FACTS THAT HAS CHANGED IS INCOME AND EQUALITY, AND THE UP SIDE NATURE OF OUR TAX CODE, HAS GOTTEN INCREASINGLY WORSE ON THE DECADES.

VOTERS FELT THAT THE UNDERFUNDING IN SCHOOLS, AS A MOTHER, SOMEBODY WHO SENDS LIKE CHILD TO PUBLIC SCHOOL, I SEE THE INVESTMENTS THAT ARE NEEDED, AND I SEE THE INVESTMENTS ARE NEEDED IN THE "T," AND I SEE THAT.

>> Braude: CAN WE TALK ABOUT BOTH ISSUES THAT MAX RAISED, STARTING WITH YOU, MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, THE TAXING OF THE WEALTHY AND NOW IN THE CONSTITUTION.

STARTING WITH YOU, CHRIS DOWDY, WHO RAN FOR GOVERNOR, AND HE LOST OBVIOUSLY TO JEFF DEAL, AND HE WAS ON CNN ON ELECTION NIGHT, AND HE SAID HE HAD SPOKEN TO HUNDREDS OF WEALTHY PEOPLE WHO SAID THEY WERE WILLING BECAUSE OF THIS ADDITIONAL TAX.

ONE, ARE YOU BUYING IT?

AND, TWO, ARE YOU CONSIDERED ABOUT IT?

>> SO THE ANECDOTES AND THE DATA WE HAVE ANALYZED DON'T SHOW THE SAME THING.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA, STATES LIKE NEW YORK, WHO DO HAVE HIGHER TAX MARGINS ON WEALTHY -- YOU KNOW ON WEALTH AND INCOME TAXES, WE'VE SEEN THAT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW -- THE ESTIMATES THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY RAISED THEIR TAX RATES, THAT HAVE SUPPOSEDLY GOING TO COME IN, THEY ARE EVEN HIGHER THAN THEY COME IN, THAN ESTIMATES SHOW, AND WE'VE SEEN THAT MILLIONAIRES AREN'T FLEEING THOSE STATES.

AND WE KNOW PEOPLE ARE HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS FOR A LOT OF REASONS.

TAXES ARE NOT ON THE TOP OF THE LIST WHY PEOPLE ARE THERE.

ALTHOUGH WE HAVE ACTUALLY AVERAGE TAXES WHEN YOU LOOK AT MASSACHUSETTS COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

SO... >> Braude: MAX, WHAT I HAD NOT THOUGHT ABOUT DURING THE CAMPAIGN, UNTIL I DID SOME OF THE READING AFTERWARDS, AND I'M SURE YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT, WHILE THE RATES ARE IN THE CONSTITUTION, I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS TO YOUR BENEFIT, SO THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH IS NOT WIDELY BELOVED IN THIS STATE, CAN DO.

WHAT THEY CAN DO IS CHANGE THINGS HOW MUCH OF A CAPITAL GAIN ON THE SALE OF YOUR HOUSE IS EXCLUDED FROM INCOME, MEANING RAISE IT IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT, AND THUS HAVE FEWER PEOPLE EXPOSED TO THE TAX.

IF THEY ATTEMPT TODD DO SOMETO DO OF THOSE THINGS -- FOR EXAMPLE, THE INFAMOUS ONE-TIME MILLIONAIRES, WOULD THE M.T.A.

OPPOSE THAT?

>> LOOK, THERE IS A LOT OF ACTUALLY GOOD INCENTIVES OR WRITEOFFS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT AND MARIE FRANCES RIVERA'S ORGANIZATION TALKED ABOUT, HALF A MILLION DOLLARS FOR A COUPLE COMES OFF OF A CAPITAL GAIN.

SO THAT'S WHY THE HOUSES THAT MIGHT BE SUBJECT TO THIS ARE MANSIONS -- MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR MANSIONS, NOT SOMEONE WHO MAY HAVE SEEN THEIR HOUSE GROW IN VALUE.

WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THAT THE KEY HERE IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE -- THIS GREAT COALITION, THE RAISE UP MASS COALITION THAT THE M.T.A.

HAS BEEN PART OF, IS GOING TO BE WATCHING AND SUPPORTING AND INSISTING THAT THE MONEY GET SPENT ON THE NEEDS THAT ARE THERE, IN PUBLIC EDUCATION AND IN PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S THE MAIN THING WE WANT TO SEE -- >> Braude: WHAT'S THE ANSWER -- WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A SECOND.

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION: IF THEY WANTED TO ESSENTIALLY CHANGE THE TAX SYSTEM IN WAYS THEY'RE PERMITTED TO DO TO HAVE FEWER PEOPLE SUBJECT TO THE TAX, WOULD YOU OPPOSE THAT?

WOULD YOUR COALITION OPPOSE THAT?

>> WHAT I'M SAYING AT THE MOMENT IS WE WOULD HAVE TO ALL DISCUSS THIS.

THE KEY IS WHAT MARIE FRANCES RIVERA'S ORGANIZATION, MASS BUDGET, FOUND IS HOUSES IN THE PAST YEAR THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS WERE ON AVERAGE $3.8 MILLION.

I GUESS THE POINT IS: LET'S SEE.

WE HAVE A FEELING WHAT IS REALLY GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO THIS IS MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR HOMES AND NOT THAT MINUS OF THEM.

>> AND WHAT I'LL JUMP IN THAT THE CHANGES THAT THE FAIR AMENDMENT TAX IS MAKING, IN MAKING OUR TAX CODE MORE JUST, IS PRETTY MONUMENTAL, AND ANY OTHER SHIFTS TO OUR TAX CODE THAT WOULD BENEFIT WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS WOULD THEN TAKE US BACK A STEP.

SO IT IS SOMETHING WE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT.

>> Braude: CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE SPENDING.

I DON'T WANT TO DEBATE AT NAUSEAM THE WHOLE ISSUE, THAT THE LEGISLATURE IS REQUIRED TO SPEND ALL OF THE MONEY ON TRANSPORTATION AND EDUCATION, AND I HAVE A FEELING WE WOULD DISAGREE.

I THINK THE LANGUAGE DOES GIVE THEM LATITUDE.

FOR ARGUMENT SAKE, CANDIDATE HEALEY WAS ON A RADIO SHOW IN OCTOBER, AND I ASKED HER MY USUAL VERY LONG-WINDED QUESTION YOU'LL HEAR IN A SECOND, AND SHE GAVE A ONE-WORD ANSWER, WHICH I KNOW MADE YOU HAPPY.

HERE SHE IS AND HERE I AM.

ARE YOU PREPARED TO SAY IF ELECTED GOVERNOR, YOU'LL HONOR THE VOTERS' MANDATE AND VETO ANY LEGISLATIVE ATTEMPT TO DIVERT NEWLY RAISED MONEY BY THE MILLIONAIRE'S TAX AWAY FROM EDUCATION AND TRANSPORTATION?

>> YES.

Deputy Premier Clark: A >> Braude: A WOMAN OF FEW WORDS.

BUT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT NOT MAKE YOU QUITE SO HAPPY, HERE IN OCTOBER IS JANTJANET WU ASKING MAURA HEALEY A QUESTION.

>> IF ELECTED, MS. HEALEY, WHERE WILL YOU FOCUS FIRST?

>> CUTTING TAXES.

CUTTING TAXES.

WE ALSO NEED TO PASS THE TAX REFORMS THAT GOVERNOR BAKER PROPOSED, TAX CUTS FOR SENIORS, RENTERS, LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES.

THEY INCLUDED THINGS LIKE CHANGES TO THE ESTATE TAX, AND IMPORTANTLY, EARNED INCOME CREDIT FOR FAMILIES.

>> Braude: SO THIS IS FOR YOU, MAR MAR MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, SINCE YOU'RE THE TAX EXPERT HERE, THIS TAX, THE SURTAX THAT YOU WON AND THE BALLOT QUESTION WON, WOULD RAISE ANYWHERE FROM 1.2 BILLION, ACCORDING TO SOME PEOPLE, TO $2 BILLION A YEAR, THE TAX CUTS THAT GOVERNOR BAKER PROPOSED, THAT DIDN'T PASS, THAT HEALEY HAS WANTED, STOPPED JUST SHORT OF A BILLION.

ARE YOU NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE FINANCIAL SITUATION AND THE TRADEOFF AND THE PRESSURE ON THE LEGISLATURE?

WHEN I ASKED MAURA HEALEY THAT QUESTION, SHE SAID WE HAD A BIG SURPLUS.

AS YOU KNOW, SURPLUS IS NOT A CONTINUING THING.

DOESN'T THAT PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE LEGISLATURE IN TERMS OF WHAT DOLLARS ARE AVAILABLE TO SPEND ON EDUCATION AND TRANSPORTATION, MARIE FRANCES RIVERA?

>> CORRECT.

JUST TO BE CLEAR, THE TAX PROPOSALS THAT GOVERNOR BAKER PROPOSED, SOME WERE ONE-TIME, AND SOME WERE MORE PERMANENT CHANGES, AND SOME WERE BENEFITING LOWER INCOME FAMILIES.

AND SOME, LIKE THE ESTATE TAX, WOULD DIRECTLY BENEFIT HIGH-INCOME AND HIGH-WEALTH FAMILIES.

SO I WOULD SAY AS WE THINK ABOUT HOW TO MAKE OUR TAX CODE MORE FAIR, WHERE HAVE TO CONSIDER AND BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHO THESE POTENTIAL TAX CHANGES WOULD IMPACT.

>> Braude: MAX, WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET OUT -- OBVIOUSLY MARIE FRANCES RIVERA IS RIGHT, THEY AFFECT DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THE LEGISLATURE A LONG TIME IN MY FORMER LIFE, AND YOU DEAL WITH IT NOW, THE MASS TAX TEACHERS' ASSOCIATION -- THERE IS THE VOTER ENDORSED QUESTION ONE, RAISING MUN, $1.2 BILLION TO $2 BILLION TO SPEND ON THESE TWO SUBJECT MATTERS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY THAT WILL BE COMING OUT IF MAURA HEALEY GETS HER WAY IN TERMS OF THIS TAX BREAK.

DOES THAT NOT WORRY YOU TERMS OF THE PEOPLE ON BEACON HILL HONORING THE MESSAGE OF THE VOTERS.

>> JIM, IT HAS BEEN LESS THAN A WEEK SINCE THE ELECTIONS, SO YOU'LL HAVE A HARD TIME MAKING ME WORRIED.

AT THIS TIME I'M VERY, VERY PLEASED ABOUT THE VICTORY THAT TOOK 107 YEARS THAT TOOK -- >> Braude: HOW ABOUT WHEN YOU DO START WORRYING, ARE YOU GOING TO WORRY ABOUT THAT?

>> WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE MOST CONSCIENTIOUS ABOUT, THAT IS OUR BROAD COALITION, IS THAT THE FULL AMOUNT, AND WE EXPECT IT IS $2 BILLION OR MAYBE MORE THAN THAT, GOES TO ADDITIONAL SPENDING ON PUBLIC EDUCATION AND TRANSPORTATION, PERIOD.

AND THEN THERE WILL BE A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THERE IS SOME GOOD TAX CUTS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO SUPPORT WORKING PEOPLE AND OTHERS THAT ARE NOT.

BUT I THINK WE WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT NOW GOVERNOR-ELECT HEALEY SAID, WHICH IS SHE WOULD VETO IT AND THAT IT NEEDS TO BE AN ADDITION -- >> Braude: SHE DID SAY THAT.

I WANT ONE MORE THING FROM YOU, MAX, IN TERMS OF THE SPENDING.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THERE IS NO MANDATE THAT WHATEVER AMOUNT IS RAISED, THE SPLIT IS DOWN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN TRANSPORTATION AND EDUCATION, IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

>> Braude: THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE FUNDING FOR YES ON 1 CAME FROM YOUR ORGANIZATION AND THE PARENT ORGANIZATION, THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION, IS THERE NOT GOING TO BE A LOT OF PRESSURE ON YOU FROM YOUR 100,000 PLUS MEASURES THAT A DISPROPORTIONATE SHARE BE SPENT IN THE SUBJECT MATTER WHERE THE MONEY CAME FROM, EDUCATION AS OPPOSED TO TRANSPORTATION?

>> JIM, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, THE M.T.A.

MEMBERS AND THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION HAVEN'T COMMITTED TO THE THREE PARTS OF THIS.

"K" THROUGH 12 SCHOOLS, AND ROADS, BRIDGES, AND TRANSPORTATION.

OUR MEMBERS TRAVEL ON THE ROADS AND TRANSPORTATION, AND THE FAMILY AND THE STUDENTS THEMSELVES NEED PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ON ROADS AND BRIDGES.

WE'RE COMMITTED TO INVESTMENTS ACROSS THAT WHOLE ARRAY OF INVESTMENTS THAT ARE NEEDED.

>> Braude: THE LAST THING FOR BOTH OF YOU, I THINK MAX SAID A MINUTE AGO IT WAS 107 YEARS, WHATEVER IT WAS, MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, WHAT IS THE LESSON THAT YOU TRANSFER TO PEOPLE WHO SAY -- YOU HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO GO TO THE BALLOT BECAUSE YOU'RE CHANGING THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT FOR THOSE FRUSTRATED WITH INACTION ON BEC HELHILLBEACONHILL, WHAT IS TRANSFERABLE TO OTHER COMPAIGNS?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE?

>> FACTS AND GETTING INVOLVED.

IT IS ABOUT INCLUSIVE DEMOCRACY.

WE HAVE A MYRIAD OF PARTNERS WE WORK WITH, ORGANIZERS ALL AROUND THE STATE, THAT USE OUR INFORMATION.

AS SOON AS THE GOVERNOR'S BUDGET PROPOSAL HITS ON THE BEGINNING OF MARCH, WE'LL BE THERE PROVIDING TRANSPARENT INFORMATION SO PEOPLE CAN GET INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, MAX?

>> I THINK WE BUILT AN INCREDIBLE CAMPAIGN.

WE KNOCKED ON OVER A MILLION DOORS.

THERE WERE A COUPLE HUNDRED DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS INVOLVED IN THIS.

SO, OF COURSE, WE HAD TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON THINGS LIKE ADVERTISEMENTS AND MAILING AND THE LIKE.

WE ALSO REALLY DEDICATED THE EN -- THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN DEDICATED COMMUNITY GROUPS THAT WENT DOOR TO DOOR AND MADE PHONE CALLS.

I THINK THAT IS A LASTING LESSON THAT THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

THE OTHER SIDE HAD FOUR BILLIONAIRES AND TWO MILLIONAIRES FUNDING THEM, AND THEY NEVER KNOCKED ON A DOOR.

WE'RE ACTUALLY BUILDING FOR THE LONG-TERM.

IT IS WORTH REMINDING PEOPLE THIS IS THE LATEST EFFORT GOING BACK TO WINNING UNIVERSAL SICK LEAVE, THE MINIMUM WAGE, WHICH WILL GO UP TO $15, AND FOR THE M.T.A., STOPPING THE CHARTER SCHOOLS, AND NOW WINNING THIS GREAT QUESTION 1 FOR TAX FAIRNESS.

SO THERE IS A MOVEMENT GOING ON, AND I THINK THIS WHOLE CAMPAIGN BUILT ON THE PREVIOUS VICTORIES AND WILL, FRANKLY, SET US UP FOR OTHER ONES IN THE FUTURE.

>> Braude: MAX AND MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> BRAUDE: MARIE FRANCES RIVERA, MAX PAGE, THANKS.

NEXT UP, THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PROBLEMS AT TWITTER OVER THE YEARS, FROM SEXUAL HARASSMENT, RACISM AND HATE SPEECH, TO DANGEROUS, SOMETIMES DEADLY, MISINFORMATION.

BUT OVER THE WEEKEND, C.E.O.

AND CHIEF TROLL OFFICER ELON MUSK TOOK ON A MUCH MORE PRESSING PROBLEM: SENATOR ED MARKEY, WHO CALLED ON MUSK TO ANSWER FOR HIS NEW TWITTER BLUE SYSTEM, WHICH ALLOWS USERS TO PAY FOR THOSE SAME BLUE CHECKS THAT USED TO ONLY IDENTIFY THAT ACCOUNTS ATTRIBUTED TO CELEBRITIES, POLITICIANS AND OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

THE NEW, FEE-BASED SYSTEM MADE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO IMPERSONATE PUBLIC FIGURES, INCLUDING OVER AT THE "WASHINGTON POST," WHICH CREATED A FAKE ACCOUNT IN MARKEY'S NAME TO SHOW JUST HOW SIMPLE IT IS.

IN RESPONSE, MUSK TWEETED: "PERHAPS IT IS BECAUSE YOUR REAL ACCOUNT SOUNDS LIKE A PARODY?"

MARKEY FOLLOWED UP, URGING MUSK TO GET TWITTER UNDER CONTROL, ALONG WITH HIS ELECTRIC CAR COMPANY, TESLA, WHICH IS UNDER FEDERAL INVESTIGATION FOR SAFETY ISSUES.

HE WROTE: "FIX YOUR COMPANIES.

OR CONGRESS WILL.

BUT BEFORE THE VERIFICATION CHAOS, THERE WERE THE MASS FIRINGS, INCLUDING TEAMS DEDICATED TO FIGHTING RACIAL BIAS IN THE TWITTER ALGORITHM AND COMBATING MISINFORMATION; NOT SURPRISINGLY, IN THE FIRST FEW HOURS AFTER MUSK'S TAKEOVER, THE USE OF HATE SPEECH EXPLODED ON THE PLATFORM.

IT'S ALL BEEN MORE THAN ENOUGH TO MAKE "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST RENEÉE GRAHAM THINK ABOUT LEAVING TWITTER FOR GOOD, THOUGH FOR NOW SHE'S STILL HANGING ON, AS SHE WROTE, WITH BAGS PACKED, SITTING BY THE DOOR, UNLIKE TOM NICHOLS, AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EXPERT, STAFF WRITER AT "THE ATLANTIC," AND AUTHOR OF ITS PEACEFIELD NEWSLETTER, WHO SAYS HE IS GOING NOWHERE.

>> Braude: TOM, REN RENEE, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: TOM, YOU'RE PRETTY INFATIC YOUR NOT LEAVING, WHY?

>> THERE IS TOO MUCH CONFORMTIVE OUTRAGE IF TRUMP WINS, I'M MOVING TO CANADA.

IT IS A PUBLIC SQUARE, AND MUSK IS COMMITTED TO RUINING IT.

HOW IT GETS WORSE IS NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS SIMPLY WALK AWAY.

MY USER EXPERIENCE IS CURATED SO THAT I DON'T SEE A LOT OF STUFF THAT ANNOYS ME.

I JUST LIKE BROWSING IN A BOOKSTORE OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO STAY THERE AND NOT BE RUN OFF.

PEOPLE TALK ABOUT STAYING AND FIGHTING, AND FIGHTING AGAINST MISINFORMATION AND AUTHORITARIANISM, WELL, THIS IS ONE WAY TO DO IT: JUST TO BE THERE AS A SOURCE OF INFORMATION RATHER THAN TO JUST GET UP AND LEAVE.

>> Braude: SO, RENEE, ARE YOUR BAGS STILL PACKED, SITTING BY THE DOOR, OR HAVE THEY MOVED SINCE YOU LAST WROTE THAT?

>> NO.

THEY'RE SITTING THERE.

I'VE TRIPPED OVER THEM A FEW TIMES.

BUT THEY'RE STILL SITTING THERE WAITING FOR ME WHEN I'M READY.

THE THING IS -- I DO SEE TOM'S POINT.

I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE TWITTER.

I GENUINELY LIKE TWITTER.

HOWEVER, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE MOST TARGETED PEOPLE ON TWITTER ARE BLACK WOMEN.

AND I CAN ONLY STAND BEING CALLED THE "N" WORD SO MANY TIMES IN A DAY.

AND THAT HAS INCREASED SINCE ELON MUSK TOOK OVER.

AND I HAVE MY ACCOUNT AS LOCKED DOWN AS COULD POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE OF AN INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED A FEW YEARS AGO.

BUT IT GETS TO THE POINT I DON'T WANT TO KEEP HEARING ON SEEING THE "N" WORD.

I DON'T WANT TO BE INUNDATED WITH THE CRYPTO ADS -- IT HAS ONLY BEEN THREE WEEKS SINCE HE TOOK OVER.

>> Braude: RENEE, WHY ARE YOU WAITING BY THE DOOR?

BASED ON WHAT YOU SAID, WHY HAVEN'T YOU DECIDED I'M OUT OF HERE?

>> THERE IS THAT PART OF ME THAT DOESN'T LIKE TO BE CHASED, YOU KNOW?

THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT DOESN'T LIKE BEING RUN OUT OF THE DOOR.

I DON'T WANT TO BE PUSHED.

I WILL JUMP, BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE PUSHED.

SO THERE IS A BIT OF STUBBORNNESS, AND THAT'S WHY I'M STILL HANGING ON.

>> Braude: BOTH OF YOU ARE NOT CRAZY ABOUT WHAT MANY ARE SUGGESTING AS AN ALTERNATIVE, MASSTADON, AND IT HAS 240 MILLION USERS, TWITTER, AND MASSATON HAS LESS.

IF IT WAS LIKE PEOPLE WHO CHOSE TO LEAVE SPOTIFY SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, WOULD YOU CHOOSE THAT OPTION, TOM?

>> UM, I THINK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I'M REALLY WHERE RENEE IS.

I'M JUST TOO STUBBORN, AND MAYBE I'M JUST TOO OLD, TO GO AND LEARN AN ENTIRELY NEW SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE A GUY WITH THE MATURITY OF A SPOILED 10-YEAR-OLD TOOK OVER THE PLATFORM.

I SHOULD ADD RENEE'S POINT IS REALLY WELL-TAKEN.

IT IS EASY FOR ME TO SAY I'M GOING TO STICK AROUND.

I'M A MIDDLE-AGED WHITE GUY, WHO DOESN'T GET -- THE EXPERIENCE FOR WOMEN, AND ESPECIALLY WOMEN OF COLOR, IS REALLY ROUGH.

THE ONLY THING I GOT CLOSE WAS WHEN I STARTED TWEETING AGAINST TRUMP, AND I STARTED GETTING DEATH THREATS.

AND THAT CAN BE REALLY UNNERVING.

AND IT IS MEANT TO BE UNNERVING.

SO I GUESS IT COMES TO DOWN TO ARE YOU GOING TO BE CHASED OFF BY A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHOSE INTENTION IS TO MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE AND CHASE YOU OFF.

MY OPINION IS TO IGNORE THAT AND CHANGE MY TWITTER SETTING SO I MOSTLY DON'T SEE THEM.

THE ALTERNATIVE, TO ME, IS TWO COMPLICATEDTOO COMPLICATED.

>> Braude: WE HAVE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF WEEKS OF MUSKS AS THE CHIEF TWIT, AS HE SAID, BUT I THINK YOU BOTH AGREE THAT THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO LIMIT VIOLENCE HAS BEEN WEAKENED.

A YEAR OUT, IS TWITTER THE HELL-SCAPE ELON MUSK PROMISED AVERTISERS IT WOULD NOT BECOME?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT COULD BE A YEAR FROM NOW.

HE HAS THREATENED TO BANKRUPT THE COMPANY, AND AVERTISERS ARE FLEEING AND USERS ARE LEAVING.

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A TWITTER, OR AT LEAST THE TWITTER OF PEOPLE WE HAVE KNOWN AND THE LAST DECADE, IN A YEAR FROM NOW.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD THAT TWITTER CAN DO.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF CONNECTIONS AND COMMUNITIES THAT TWITTER HAS CREATED.

BUT YOU HAVE THIS ONE PERSON WHO HAS DECIDED TO BLOW IT ALL UP, INCLUDING A LOT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT HAS KEPT IT FROM EXPLODING INTO A HELL SCAPE.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE GET TOM'S RESPONSE, LEADERS OF THINGS FROM ARAB SPRING FROM BLACK LIVES MATTER AND BEYOND WOULD AGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, NOT THAT IT WAS FLAWLESS.

WHAT ABOUT THAT PREDICTION OF ABOUT WHAT IT ENDS UP -- NOT ENDS UP, BUT EVEN IN A FINITE PERIOD OF TIME, A YEAR UNDER ELON MUSK, ASSUMING BOTH STAY TOGETHER FOR A YEAR, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE IN A YEAR, DO YOU THINK?

>> THIS IS A PLACE WHERE YOU GET BURNED WITH PREDICTIONS.

MY TWITTER EXPERIENCE HASN'T CHANGED THAT MUCH.

I'VE SEEN AN INCREASE IN SOME ADS, MORE KIND OF TROLLISH ACCOUNTS AND TUG ON MY SLEEVES HERE AND THERE.

I THINK ANOTHER POSSIBILITY AND THE MOST OPTIMISTIC POSSIBILITY IS THAT MUSK WILL GET BORED WITH THIS AND HAVE TO TURN IT OVER TO SOME PROFESSIONALS, WHO WILL BE ABLE TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON AND KEEP IT RUNNING, BECAUSE THE INFRASTRUCTURE WILL EVENTUALLY COLLAPSE.

YOU CAN'T FIRE ALL YOUR ENGINEERS AND JUST THINK THAT TWITTER, YOU PLUG IT INTO A WALL AND IT GOES.

IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THIS WILL BE AA A SHORT-TERM PROBLEM, TWITTER EVEN COLLAPSES OR IT AGAINST SOMETHING LIKE ADULT SUPERVISION IN MUCH LESS THAN A YEAR.

THERE IS NO WAY THIS GOES ON LIKE THIS FOR A YEAR WITH THIS -- AT THIS KIND OF RATE.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO GO ON FOR A YEAR.

I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO BE SOME GROWNUPS THAT WILL HAVE TO TAKE CHARGE AT SOME POINT.

>> Braude: TOM NICHOLS, AMONG THE GROWNUPS, IS IT CONGRESS?

YOU KNOW THE LINE FROM MARKEY, "FIX YOUR COMPANIES OR CONGRESS WILL."

IS THERE A PLACE THAT CONGRESS, ASSUMING THEY UNDERSTAND HOW THIS ALL WORKS, WILL REGULATE TWITTER, IF IT CAN'T REGULATE ITSELF?

>> I'M A PRETTY EXTREME LIBERTARIAN.

I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF GOVERNMENT REGULATING ANYTHING THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPEECH.

WHERE I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT GOVERNMENT MAY LOOK CLOSELY IS THE WAY THAT MUSK HAS RUN THE COMPANY.

YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THE TREATMENT OF EMPLOYEES AND LABOR LAWS AND THINGS LIKE THAT -- >> Braude: BUT NOT AS TO THE SPEECH, NOT AS TO THE CONTENT?

>> I WOULD REALLY BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

>> Braude: RENEE, ARE YOU ANY MORE COMFORTABLE WITH GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION.

BOTH BIDEN AND TRUMP AGREED FOR DIFFERENT REASONS THAT THE SECTION 230 OF THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT, WHICH ALLOWS PEOPLE WHO OWN PLATFORMS NOT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT, NEEDED SOME FIXING.

IS THERE ANY GOVERNMENT FIXING THAT YOU WOULD BE COMFORTABLE WITH, VIS-AÀ-VIS THE FREE SPEECH ASPECT OF THIS?

>> JIM, I THINK IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE GOVERNMENT STEPPING IN AND DECIDING WHAT CAN AND CAN'T BE, YOU GIT GET INTO THIS REALLY WEIRD PLACES.

HOWEVER, I THINK SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE -- WITH REGARD TO MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION, MAYBE I'M NOT THE PERSON YOU SHOULD ASK THAT QUESTION.

YOU SHOULD ASK THE PEOPLE WHO RUN ELI LILLY, WHEN SOMEBODY IMPERSONATED THEIR ACCOUNT AND SAID THE DRUG WILL BE FREE, AND THE STOCK WENT CRAZY, AND NOW THEY'RE PULLING SOMETHING OFF THE STOCK.

IT IS GETTING INTO A DARKER AREA -- >> Braude: IT TOOK TWITTER SIX HOURS TO RESPOND TO LILY'S CONCERNS ABOUT THE FALSE INFORMATION.

I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

SHOULD I ASSUME, TOM NICHOLS, BASED UPON YOUR SELF-DESCRIPTION A MINUTE AGO, YOU WOULD BE OKAY WITH ELON MUSK DOING WHAT HE SAID HE COULD DO AND PUTTING DONALD TRUMP BACK ON TWITTER?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF -- IT'S HIS COMPANY.

IF HE WANTS TO GIVE DONALD TRUMP A PLATFORM, THAT'S UP TO HIM.

WHAT I WOULDN'T WANT IS FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO TELL HIM THAT HE MUST GIVE TRUMP A PLATFORM OR THAT HE CAN'T GIVE TRUMP A PLATFORM.

I THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET AWAY FROM TRUMP'S POISONING OF OUR PUBLIC LIFE.

IN SOME WAYS I WOULD ALMOST RATHER HE BE ON TWITTER SO WE KNOW WHAT HE IS UP TO.

I WANT TO ADD ONE THING ABOUT GOVERNMENT REGULATION.

WHAT IS A CONCERN IS HOW MUCH OF TWITTER IS OWNED BY FOREIGN COUNTRIES -- >> Braude: SAUDI ARABIA, IN PARTICULAR.

>> RIGHT.

THEN I THINK IT BECOMES SOMETHING THAT IS SO WIDELY USED IN AMERICA BECOMES OWNED BY A FOREIGN COUNTRY, THERE NEEDS TO BE A LOT OF TRANSPARENCY.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE 15 SECONDS, RENEE, HOW DO YOU LIKE ABOUT THE TRUMP RESURRECTION?

>> I THINK TRUMP WILL BE BACK, AND IF HE IS BACK, THAT WILL GET MY BAGS OUT THE DOOR.

>> Braude: PERFECT PLACE TO STAND.

>> BRAUDE: RENEÉE GRAHAM, TOM NICHOLS, THANKS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org